TJ
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I LOVE DAN WHITE
Good, you're working out Freeman....you're gonna need to
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Post by TJ on Aug 7, 2009 20:36:22 GMT -5
Wanna elaborate why you don't like CM Punk, and what makes a good heel?
Brought it here cuz probably going to get a little heated, but I'm not going to jump down your throat, at least I'm not trying.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 20:53:52 GMT -5
I just never liked CM Punk. He was always sloppy in the ring, his promos bored me and he isn't all that over either. I just don't care about anything that he does. He bores the shit out of me to be honest. His original gimmick was good... but that gimmick is never going to be done correctly in the WWE.
The gimmick itself is great... it's just that the person using it is extremely underwhelming and for some reason he has half of the internet on his cock... but not the people in the audience, which is his major problem. Nobody else seems to care either, because if they did, he would have held the Title for a good reign when he first got it.
What makes a good heel is an entirely different discussion.
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TJ
Experienced Member
I LOVE DAN WHITE
Good, you're working out Freeman....you're gonna need to
Posts: 848
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Post by TJ on Aug 7, 2009 21:01:01 GMT -5
I see what your talking about with teh sloppy ring work, because his ECW days were sloppy. The promos are not his fault, it's the fact that WWE never had him speak until he won the ECW title. This is the most he talked in his WWE career.
The title reigns are because Punks been in the doghouse before, and this latest one should have been longer, but NoC sucked so much wanted to send the kiddies home happy with Jeff winning like 5 minutes before the match began.
But really, I want to hear your thoughts on a good heel.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 21:17:26 GMT -5
I wasn't just talking about his WWE run. His ROH work aside from his feud with Raven was nothing spectacular.
A good heel gets booed. A heel is the person that takes away or threatens what the fans want to see. It's not just about ring work, because some of the best heels of recent time weren't even wrestlers (like Vickie Guerrero)
There are so many wrestlers in TNA and the WWE with corrupt mindsets about what a heel is. They seem to have the face part down, but the heel side of the spectrum is still a mess. It's probably because the people in charge have no shit what they're doing so it's the blind leading the blind.
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Jason Freeman
Competition Judge
Long Island Iced Free
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Post by Jason Freeman on Aug 7, 2009 21:23:16 GMT -5
I was at Smackdown just this week as you know and I can absolutely confirm that Punk got MAJOR heat. MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR heat. He was basically bood out of the building. So I dont know what you're talking about
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TJ
Experienced Member
I LOVE DAN WHITE
Good, you're working out Freeman....you're gonna need to
Posts: 848
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Post by TJ on Aug 7, 2009 21:26:14 GMT -5
I wasn't just talking about his WWE run. His ROH work aside from his feud with Raven was nothing spectacular. A good heel gets booed. A heel is the person that takes away or threatens what the fans want to see. It's not just about ring work, because some of the best heels of recent time weren't even wrestlers (like Vickie Guerrero) There are so many wrestlers in TNA and the WWE with corrupt mindsets about what a heel is. They seem to have the face part down, but the heel side of the spectrum is still a mess. It's probably because the people in charge have no shit what they're doing so it's the blind leading the blind. Agreed, to a point, I remember you said that Hogan was a better heel then Perfect. Hogan, along with the nWo were all heels that the fans loved, which by your logic, makes them bad heels. But the problem is that WWE and TNA like the cool heels. That's why I see Jericho as a better heel than Orton. Orton is cheer by a few fans in the arena, yet Jericho, aside from crowd smarks, gets booed.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 21:29:11 GMT -5
But see, you're changing your opinion now. Before, you were saying that it doesn't matter who gets bood more, that it wasn't a factor in who is a better heel.
Saying that Hogan was cheered when he was a heel makes it pretty clear that you weren't around when the real nWo had its first run. The only nWo guy to really get cheered was Hall... and Nash occasionally when he was out with Hall. If you had actually seen the nWo unfold you'd know that they were mega heels when it first began.
Hogan was cheered at some points later on... and those points aren't the Hogan I was talking about.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 21:29:58 GMT -5
I was at Smackdown just this week as you know and I can absolutely confirm that Punk got MAJOR heat. MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR heat. He was basically bood out of the building. So I dont know what you're talking about But "major heat" to YOU is a few people booing with only a few cheering and some not doing anything. A real heel is the guy who has 98% of the arena throwing garbage at him... which you haven't seen... because you watch the WWE, where there hasn't been a heel that solid.
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TJ
Experienced Member
I LOVE DAN WHITE
Good, you're working out Freeman....you're gonna need to
Posts: 848
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Post by TJ on Aug 7, 2009 21:40:01 GMT -5
I was at Smackdown just this week as you know and I can absolutely confirm that Punk got MAJOR heat. MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR heat. He was basically bood out of the building. So I dont know what you're talking about But "major heat" to YOU is a few people booing with only a few cheering and some not doing anything. A real heel is the guy who has 98% of the arena throwing garbage at him... which you haven't seen... because you watch the WWE, where there hasn't been a heel that solid. Well, I blame VKM for that. back to the point of the cool heel, it's impossible to completely hate a heel in wrestling now a days. The last best heel was Hassan, because he was used how a pro-arabic should have been used by WWE, but then again, he was, imo, the reason why WWE is like it is now. And to the Hogan part, I wasn't big on WCW back in the day until around Goldberg getting big, but the only times that I can remember him getting booed completely from what I've seen is when he joined Nash and Hall and spray painted the title and the fingerpoke of doom. But I'm going to pose this question, isn't a good heel someone who can stay heel through out there career without getting stale? Or does that not mean anything to do?
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Jake Steele
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Post by Jake Steele on Aug 7, 2009 22:35:36 GMT -5
I'm on the totally opposite end of Rep with CM Punk. I think he's great. His ring work is solid as hell, but not until recently I actually liked him. Because when he was face... he was boring. Totally fucking boring, and his reigns were more than forgettable. The best moment of his pre-heel career was his one week heel turn in ECW, and that's pretty sad.
Though this heel turn and feud with Jeff Hardy is really solid in my eyes. He's doing the Straight Edge gimmick with perciseness, and he's beginning to get extremely major heat. Of course you won't get trash throwing heel heat... Vince McMahon gets offended when someone even tries to curse in his arena, and the only time I can remember seeing trash thrown into the arena during a WWE show this decade was after Big Show vs. RVD... and that was an old school ECW Crowd.
CM Punk though, he's doing his gimmick well. I like him.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 22:40:40 GMT -5
How can you say that his ring work is solid? He has to be the sloppiest main event wrestler in some time. His martial arts moves are hit and miss, his ariel tactics are miserable.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 22:41:51 GMT -5
But "major heat" to YOU is a few people booing with only a few cheering and some not doing anything. A real heel is the guy who has 98% of the arena throwing garbage at him... which you haven't seen... because you watch the WWE, where there hasn't been a heel that solid. Well, I blame VKM for that. back to the point of the cool heel, it's impossible to completely hate a heel in wrestling now a days. The last best heel was Hassan, because he was used how a pro-arabic should have been used by WWE, but then again, he was, imo, the reason why WWE is like it is now. And to the Hogan part, I wasn't big on WCW back in the day until around Goldberg getting big, but the only times that I can remember him getting booed completely from what I've seen is when he joined Nash and Hall and spray painted the title and the fingerpoke of doom. But I'm going to pose this question, isn't a good heel someone who can stay heel through out there career without getting stale? Or does that not mean anything to do? No... because it's the bookers job to keep the angles fresh, and that's where Bischoff failed after January of 1998.
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Jake Steele
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Post by Jake Steele on Aug 7, 2009 22:42:01 GMT -5
He has to be the sloppiest main event wrestler in some time. Jeff Hardy.
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Post by rep on Aug 7, 2009 22:44:13 GMT -5
They're about the same on the slop meter. It's just that Punk uses submission moves so people think that that somehow makes him a good wrestler. Jeff Hardy is at least over with little girls.
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Jake Steele
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Post by Jake Steele on Aug 7, 2009 22:52:13 GMT -5
I don't believe so. I think he works better than most of the workers in WWE right now... he botches a few moves here and there, but compare him to someone like Batista and he isn't as sloppy. By far.
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